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{{SVC Character Subnav|name=Balrog}} | |||
{| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin-left: 10px;" | {| class="wikitable" style="float:right; margin-left: 10px;" | ||
|- | |- | ||
! align="center" colspan="2" | マイク・バイソン, Mike Bison | ! align="center" colspan="2" | マイク・バイソン, Mike Bison (aka Boxer) | ||
|- | |- | ||
! align="center" colspan="2" | [[image:Boxersvc.gif|"Hmph! Without my fans, I just can't get into this."|center]] | ! align="center" colspan="2" | [[image:Boxersvc.gif|"Hmph! Without my fans, I just can't get into this."|center]] | ||
|- | |- | ||
| '''Difficulty''' || Easy | | '''Category''' || Normal | ||
|- | |||
| '''Playstyle''' || Footsies rushdown | |||
|- | |||
| '''Difficulty''' || Easy/Average | |||
|- | |- | ||
| '''Max Mode Needed?''' || Up to you | | '''Max Mode Needed?''' || Up to you | ||
Line 16: | Line 21: | ||
|- | |- | ||
| '''Crouching Hitbox''' || Tall | | '''Crouching Hitbox''' || Tall | ||
|- | |||
| '''Defense Modifier''' || 223 | |||
|- | |||
| '''Wall Jump''' || No | |||
|- | |- | ||
|} | |} | ||
Line 25: | Line 34: | ||
{{ ProConTable | {{ ProConTable | ||
| pros= | | pros= | ||
* | * '''Faster than average dash:''' A small but somewhat noticeable difference, Balrog's forward dash travels slightly faster and ends sooner than other characters' dashes to make closing the gap a little more comfortable. | ||
* Decent charge moves | * '''Good jumps:''' Balrog is a ground focused character who ironically has good jumps to work with. It doesn't alleviate his other problems with fighting in the air, but lets him move pretty comfortably, and has access to a long-distance super jump. | ||
* Anti-air that can juggle the opponent | * '''Decent pokes and footsies:''' Balrog's normals come out fast, recover quickly, and let him chain a few lights together. Though he doesn't have a wide variety of them, he always has access to quick buttons and a solid poke in st.C, making it harder to GCFS these normals. In matchups where he's not forced to deal with defensive walls and/or zoners, he plays the grounded game decently well. | ||
* | * '''Decent charge moves:''' Balrog's charge attacks give him opportunities to punish from further away and decently fast if he has the window to do so, with a fairly long horizontal hitbox. It also helps him close the distance when he needs to. His supers serve as strong combo enders and punishers, as well. | ||
* '''Anti-air that can juggle the opponent:''' Balrog's down-up K charge is not only a good anti-air, but allows him to hit the opponent into a juggle where he can follow up with another attack, notably his supers, making his anti-air game more rewarding than other characters. | |||
* | * '''TAP can dodge some moves:''' Balrog's TAP has some startup invulnerability, allowing him to punish some attacks and projectiles if timed right. It's unreliable, however, and only lasts so many frames before the rest of his startup leaves him vulnerable. | ||
* '''Reliable Exceed:''' While not an amazing exceed, let alone being locked behind a charge motion, Balrog's exceed is a fast punish tool and hits hard, plus he can confirm into it if need be. In the event he needs to turn the round in his favor, it gets the job done pretty well. He's invincible on startup, too. | |||
| cons= | | cons= | ||
* | * '''Stubby normals:''' Though they're fast, his normals are also stubby and require him getting fairly close to land them, despite being more rushdown focused. This is further compounded by his inability to get in easily depending on the matchup. Add onto this that his lows aren't good in that he can't cancel them without max mode, besides already being stubby, and can't chain them together unlike his cr.A, and you have a set of normals which can work but are too stubby and don't give him any good mixups. | ||
* '''Zero zoning tools:''' Balrog needs to get in to be any sort of threat at all, being a footsies rushdown character. But in a game where zoners are strong and good movement is a big advantage, Balrog being tied to the ground and closing the distance the old but honest way keeps him from putting up much of a fight. | |||
* '''Non-existent air game:''' Balrog's air normals are total garbage. Stubby hitboxes, active for only a couple frames at best, and functionally suck as both air-to-airs and jump-ins, you're only using them because they're better than nothing. Not to mention, timing them for a jump-in combo is harder to do when jump-in combos require deep hits. | |||
* '''Low meterless damage:''' Balrog's main comboable normal is cr.C, where his only option is to cancel into special or super. He can combo with cl.C and cl.D, but this involves holding back, which he has to be careful to not accidentally reposition himself. His pokes by themselves don't do a lot of damage, but his specials aren't much better either. For him to unlock his best damage, he needs to meter dump, especially when his best damage is locked behind max mode. But because he relies on cr.C, you also have to pick which set of specials to charge for, too. | |||
* '''Max mode combos are also difficult:''' Balrog's max mode combos require the player to start charging immediately after the last input registers a special move due to the lack of room for Balrog to charge up - at most just over 30 frames. Doing max mode combos with Balrog has some leeway, like plinking two buttons in order to activate two charge motion specials in quick succession. It's not enough, however, when the next special move still requires the player to hold forwards also. Balrog effectively needs precise charge timings in order to not drop his combos, and they're fast attacks. | |||
* Zero zoning tools | * '''Exceed has short reach and limited comboability:''' A great punish tool, but there's few combos Balrog can do to combo into exceed. Not to mention, the range is pretty stubby and with few active hitbox frames, requiring Balrog be closer up in order to ensure it lands. | ||
* | * '''Characters with ground control are a nightmare to deal with:''' If Balrog is up against characters who hold their ground a lot better than he can, he's pretty much defenseless and often forced to jump in. But because his jump normals also suck, he's essentially a moving target and can easily be anti-aired. | ||
* | * '''Is a charge character in a game that is anti-charge characters:''' Charge characters are forced to use BC input for front step, which is a steep cost of meter to give up for a punish, unless they buffer super with dash input. Even with the benefit of 30F charge times, they're too committal in a game full of movement and punishes. In some MUs, having time to charge at all is a problem. Not to mention, the NeoGeo port's charge input bug limiting their options. | ||
* Characters with ground control are a nightmare to deal with | |||
}} | }} | ||
<center>{{FrameDataKey-SVC}}</center> | <center>{{FrameDataKey-SVC}}</center> | ||
== | ==Move List== | ||
===Normal Moves=== | ===Normal Moves=== | ||
====Close Normals==== | ====Close Normals==== | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=4 | ||
|Active= | |Active=2 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=5 | ||
|Total= | |Total=11 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+5 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=+3 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Just a simple punch that can chain into itself, other Light Attacks, and can be normal canceled. Whiffs on small crouching chars. | |description=* Just a simple punch that can chain into itself, other Light Attacks, and can be normal canceled. Whiffs on small crouching chars. | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=4 | ||
|Active= | |Active=4 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=8 | ||
|Total= | |Total=16 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+0 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=-2 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* A cancelable punch that cannot chain into any Light Attack, but won't whiff on small crouching chars. | |description=* A cancelable punch that cannot chain into any Light Attack, but won't whiff on small crouching chars. | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=5 | ||
|Active= | |Active=1, 8 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=9 | ||
|Total= | |Total=23 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+2 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=+0 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Move for combos, but most of Boxer's combos will be while crouching, probably. | |description=* Move for combos, but most of Boxer's combos will be while crouching, probably. | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=6 | ||
|Active= | |Active=4 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=10 | ||
|Total= | |Total=20 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+6 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=+4 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Can be used like the cl.C. | |description=* Can be used like the cl.C. | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=8 | ||
|Active= | |Active=5 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=14 | ||
|Total= | |Total=27 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+1 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=-1 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* A great attack for poking. Very fast, won't whiff on low crouching chars(Although it can look like), but cannot be normal canceled. | |description=* A great attack for poking. Very fast, won't whiff on low crouching chars(Although it can look like), but cannot be normal canceled. | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=5 | ||
|Active= | |Active=2 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=26 | ||
|Total= | |Total= | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=-8 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=-10 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Another poke. Very fast too, and Boxer will walk a little forward while performing this move. Cannot be normal canceled. | |description=* Another poke. Very fast too, and Boxer will walk a little forward while performing this move, but very slow recovery leaves him potentially punishable on hit. Not too good range, either. Cannot be normal canceled. | ||
}} | }} | ||
}} | }} | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=4 | ||
|Active= | |Active=2 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=5 | ||
|Total= | |Total=11 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+5 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=+3 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Like the s.A, but won't whiff on small crouching chars(Obviously). You can use this on combos instead of the standing one. | |description=* Like the s.A, but won't whiff on small crouching chars(Obviously). You can use this on combos instead of the standing one. | ||
Line 222: | Line 258: | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=7 | ||
|Active= | |Active=2 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=5 | ||
|Total= | |Total=14 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=+5 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=+3 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* A punch that hits low. Strangely enough, this move cannot be normal canceled, and cannot chain into the other Light Attacks. | |description=* A punch that hits low. Strangely enough, this move cannot be normal canceled, and cannot chain into the other Light Attacks. | ||
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{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=6 | ||
|Active= | |Active=1, 7 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=17 | ||
|Total= | |Total=31 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=-5 | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=-7 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Anti-air. Good to use when you're charging down-back, and your opponent wants to do a jump attack on you, or on some punish combos. Can be normal canceled too. | |description=* Anti-air. Good to use when you're charging down-back, and your opponent wants to do a jump attack on you, or on some punish combos. Can be normal canceled too. | ||
Line 268: | Line 312: | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=11 | ||
|Active= | |Active=4 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=6 | ||
|Total= | |Total=21 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=SKD | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=+8 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* A punch that hits low and knocks down. Only that. Cannot be normal canceled too, and it lacks reach. | |description=* A punch that hits low and knocks down. Only that. Cannot be normal canceled too, and it lacks reach. | ||
Line 288: | Line 336: | ||
|subtitle= | |subtitle= | ||
|caption= | |caption= | ||
|name=(n)j.A | |name=(n)j.A/B | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Overhead | |Guard=Overhead | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=4 | ||
|Active= | |Active=3 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery= | ||
|Total= | |Total= | ||
Line 312: | Line 364: | ||
|subtitle= | |subtitle= | ||
|caption= | |caption= | ||
|name=(n)j. | |name=(n)j.C | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Overhead | |Guard=Overhead | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=4 | ||
|Active= | |Active=3 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery= | ||
|Total= | |Total= | ||
Line 326: | Line 382: | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Neutral/Diagonal Jumping Attack | |description=* Neutral/Diagonal Jumping Attack | ||
* | * Just a jump attack with good damage. Boxer doesn't need to jump that much, so this move is nearly useless for him. | ||
}} | }} | ||
}} | }} | ||
Line 336: | Line 392: | ||
|subtitle= | |subtitle= | ||
|caption= | |caption= | ||
|name=(n)j. | |name=(n)j.D | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage= | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |||
|Guard=Overhead | |Guard=Overhead | ||
|G. Crush= | |||
|Stun= | |||
|Meter= | |||
|Cancel= | |Cancel= | ||
|Startup= | |Startup='''nj= 6''' ; '''dj= 5''' | ||
|Active= | |Active='''nj= 2''' ; '''dj= 3''' | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery= | ||
|Total= | |Total= | ||
Line 350: | Line 410: | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* Neutral/Diagonal Jumping Attack | |description=* Neutral/Diagonal Jumping Attack | ||
* | * On Boxer's jumping normals, this is the only one that can crossup the opponent. Nothing special. | ||
}} | }} | ||
}} | }} | ||
===Throws=== | |||
===== <span class="invisible-header"></span> ===== | ===== <span class="invisible-header"></span> ===== | ||
<font style="visibility:hidden" size="0"></font> | <font style="visibility:hidden" size="0"></font> | ||
Line 360: | Line 421: | ||
|subtitle= | |subtitle= | ||
|caption= | |caption= | ||
|name= | |name={{Icon-SNK|A}}{{Icon-SNK|B}} Throw | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage=24 | ||
|Guard= | |Counter Dmg=24 | ||
|Cancel= | |Guard=Throw | ||
|G. Crush=0 | |||
|Stun=0 | |||
|Meter=0 | |||
|Cancel=X | |||
|Startup= | |Startup= | ||
|Active= | |Active= | ||
Line 373: | Line 438: | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv= | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability= | ||
|description=* | |description=* | ||
}} | }} | ||
}} | }} | ||
===== <span class="invisible-header"></span> ===== | ===== <span class="invisible-header"></span> ===== | ||
<font style="visibility:hidden" size="0"></font> | <font style="visibility:hidden" size="0"></font> | ||
Line 385: | Line 448: | ||
|subtitle= | |subtitle= | ||
|caption= | |caption= | ||
|name={{Icon-SNK| | |name={{Icon-SNK|C}}{{Icon-SNK|D}} Throw | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
Line 410: | Line 473: | ||
{{MoveData | {{MoveData | ||
|image= | |image= | ||
|subtitle= | |subtitle={{Icon-SNK|C}}{{Icon-SNK|D}} on Block | ||
|caption= | |caption= | ||
|name= | |name=Guard Cancel Blowback | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage=0 | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |Counter Dmg=0 | ||
|Guard= | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush=0 | |G. Crush=0 | ||
|Stun=0 | |Stun=0 | ||
Line 912: | Line 975: | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage=36x5 | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |Counter Dmg=45 | ||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |G. Crush=2x5 | ||
|Stun= | |Stun=0 | ||
|Meter= | |Meter=0 | ||
|Cancel= | |Cancel=X | ||
|Startup= | |Startup= | ||
|Active= | |Active= | ||
Line 940: | Line 1,003: | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage=32x9 | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |Counter Dmg=40 | ||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |G. Crush=0 | ||
|Stun= | |Stun=0 | ||
|Meter= | |Meter=0 | ||
|Cancel= | |Cancel=X | ||
|Startup= | |Startup= | ||
|Active= | |Active= | ||
Line 966: | Line 1,029: | ||
|data= | |data= | ||
{{AttackData-SVC | {{AttackData-SVC | ||
|Damage= | |Damage=136 | ||
|Counter Dmg= | |Counter Dmg=142 | ||
|Guard=Mid | |Guard=Mid | ||
|G. Crush= | |G. Crush=36 | ||
|Stun= | |Stun=0 | ||
|Meter= | |Meter=0 | ||
|Cancel= | |Cancel=X | ||
|Startup= | |Startup=1+13 | ||
|Active= | |Active=2, 2 | ||
|Recovery= | |Recovery=18 | ||
|Total= | |Total=36 | ||
|Hit Adv= | |Hit Adv=SKD | ||
|Block Adv= | |Block Adv=-4 | ||
|Invulnerability= | |Invulnerability=1F-14F (Full invul during startup) | ||
|description=* Boxer will dash a little forward and then he will do a punch. This move is his most damaging, and will cause a hard knockdown on the opponent. Problems with the input? You can try to Charge df, HCB, uf+KK, it should be easier for you. | |description=* Boxer will dash a little forward and then he will do a punch. This move is his most damaging, and will cause a hard knockdown on the opponent. Problems with the input? You can try to Charge df, HCB, uf+KK, it should be easier for you. | ||
}} | }} | ||
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Balrog isn't a jumper, just know that(Jump only if your opponent is stunned/in a punishable state). Just know your best anti-airs(Like the cr.C, and the Charge d, u moves) and you'll be fine. If you need to punish, do it with any damaging combo below. For his combos, they aren't that hard, and Boxer can do good damage when he needs. Only that. Good luck in your matches. | Balrog isn't a jumper, just know that(Jump only if your opponent is stunned/in a punishable state). Just know your best anti-airs(Like the cr.C, and the Charge d, u moves) and you'll be fine. If you need to punish, do it with any damaging combo below. For his combos, they aren't that hard, and Boxer can do good damage when he needs. Only that. Good luck in your matches. | ||
===Advanced Strategy=== | ===Advanced Strategy=== | ||
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* You can just do a low move/combo on the ground without jumping(Yeah, Boxer lacks a ground overhead). | * You can just do a low move/combo on the ground without jumping(Yeah, Boxer lacks a ground overhead). | ||
====Match-Ups==== | |||
==Combos== | |||
<center>{{Template:ComboNotationKey-SVC}}</center> | |||
===BnB Combos=== | |||
{| class="wikitable sortable" border="1" style="margin: 1em auto 1em auto;text-align: center" | |||
'' | |+ BnB Combos | ||
|- | |||
! Combo !! Position !! Damage !! Stun !! Difficulty !! Notes | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~f P || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || Good combo to begin. The best finishers for it are probably the df+P/K, because they will do a knockdown, and won't whiff on some crouching chars. | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~f K || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~df P || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~df K || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C, [d]~u D, [b]~f P || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || Variaton of the first one, but with a little more damage. Nothing very special with this combo. | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C, [d]~u D, [b]~f K || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X crossup,) cr.B, cr.A, any super || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || Just Boxer showing what he can do using his hands with a low starter. You can do the combo with some Special Moves too, but the Supers are just more damaging. Well... I said that the cr.B can't chain into other Light Attacks, and that's true. That above, is actually a link(Chain isn't the same thing as a link). I'll put another example of a link below. | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X crossup,) cl.D, st.D, any super || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || That's it, another link. It's possible too, I can assume. Like the combo above, this can work with some Special Moves too. Move buffering with a dash can help you with this combo. | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr.C, [d]~u D, (early) [b]~fbf K, (corner) [b]~fbf P || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || One of Boxer's most damaging combos! More than one bar of health in damage terms and two damaging Special Moves on only one combo! The sad part is that you'll need to have two levels in your meter. But don't worry with that! If you don't know what to do in Max Mode, you can use this combo, because you won't lose your two levels, and you'll be happy with the damage! Button hold recommended for doing this combo to ensure everything comes out as early as possible. | |||
|- | |||
|(j.X,) cr./cl.C, Exceed || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || Another damaging combo, but used mostly for punish situations, or while your opponent is stunned. It has almost the same damage as the combo above, and you won't lose meter. Don't worry if you think that ''"It's so hard"'', because you have a shortcut for the Exceed. | |||
|- | |||
|} | |||
===Max Mode Combos=== | |||
{| class="wikitable sortable" border="1" style="margin: 1em auto 1em auto;text-align: center" | |||
|+ Max Mode Combos | |||
|- | |||
! Combo !! Position !! Damage !! Stun !! Difficulty !! Notes | |||
|- | |||
|[(C)[b]~f A ~ (C)D]x3 || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || That's the loop. Click [https://youtu.be/XyKBz8GCW8c here] if you want to see it. Very difficult to do as it barely gives Balrog enough time to charge in-between each attack, but the reward is well worth the execution requirements. | |||
|- | |||
|[(C)[b]~f A ~ (C)D]x3, [d]~u D, [b]~fbf K, [b]~fbf P || Corner to Corner || TBA || TBA || TBA || A variation of the above combo that Balrog can do even if you're on the opposite end of the stage. Even better if he just enters Max Mode as he's starting the combo as this ensures he has enough meter to do the most damage and still have one bar of meter left over. | |||
|- | |||
|[(C)[b]~f A ~ (C)D]x3, [d]~u D, reset || Corner to Corner || TBA || TBA || TBA || | |||
|- | |||
|[AC/BD], any super || TBA || TBA || TBA || TBA || Easy, and can be damaging(The damage is random due to the TAP). Use it on punish situations, or if you want, to counter certain projecties(The ones with bad startup/recovery). It doesn't work with the Exceed too. | |||
|- | |||
|} | |||
{{Navbox-SVC}} | {{Navbox-SVC}} | ||
[[Category: SvC Chaos]] | [[Category: SvC Chaos]] | ||
[[Category:Balrog (Boxer)]] | [[Category:Balrog (Boxer)]] |
Latest revision as of 02:29, 28 July 2024
マイク・バイソン, Mike Bison (aka Boxer) | |
---|---|
Category | Normal |
Playstyle | Footsies rushdown |
Difficulty | Easy/Average |
Max Mode Needed? | Up to you |
Tier Placement | Non-Threat (D) |
Standing Hitbox | ? |
Crouching Hitbox | Tall |
Defense Modifier | 223 |
Wall Jump | No |
Introduction
Balrog, also known as Boxer to avoid international confusion, is an American boxer based on the likeness of the famous boxer Mike Tyson, who in Japan is known as M. Bison. While a charge character, he's a footsies based rushdown character who, in games like Super Turbo, has proven that he's a force to be a reckoned with, and other games, like Champion Edition, to be a total pushover. And unfortunately for Balrog, he's a pushover here. There's worse characters, sure, but if the likes of Dan can pose a threat against him, then it's safe to say he's packing several problems - most notably, playing the patient footsies game in a game where strong movement and zoning are all but absent. Still, if you put in the work, he can get some results and has something to offer; he definitely isn't any less fun, at least.
Strengths | Weaknesses |
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|
|
SVC Chaos: SNK VS Capcom Frame Data Glossary | |
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Damage |
How much damage the attack does. This takes into account no defense modifiers, so the damage assumes a 0% damage modifier, or in other words the average defense modifier of 223 against characters like Kyo and Ryu.
|
Counter Damage |
How much damage the attack does on a counter hit, or when it connects with an opponent while they're performing an attack. Counter damage values listed are pulled from the SVC Chaos Enterbrain Mook, save Athena, Red Arremer, Serious Mr. Karate and Shin Akuma. |
Guard |
Where the attack hits, and thus where it must be blocked.
|
Guard Crush |
How much guard meter damage the attack does to the green Guard Gauge. |
Stun |
How many points of stun the attack adds to the opponent's invisible Stun Gauge. |
Meter |
How much meter is gained for performing/landing the attack. Special moves earn meter both when activated and when they connect with the opponent, whether it hits them or they block it. |
Cancel |
The type of cancel the attack can perform.
|
Startup |
How many frames it takes before the move becomes 'active' or has a hitbox. The SVC Chaos wiki uses classic startup notation, which does not include the first active frame. A move with 3 startup becomes active on frame 4. Super and Exceed startup will calculate both the frames before and after the super flash animation as such: X+Y, with X being the startup frames before the flash animation and Y being the startup frames after the flash animation.
|
Active |
How many frames a move remains active (can hurt opponents) for. Consecutive sets of active frames on a multi-hit move are separated by a comma. (Example: 3, 4 - The attack has its first hitbox for 3 frames, then the second hitbox for 4 frames)
|
Recovery |
How many frames it takes for a move to finish after it's been active. |
Total |
The total number of frames the attack lasts on screen for. This adds up the startup, active, and recovery frames into one number. |
Hit/Block Adv |
These are frame advantage values when the attack hits or is blocked. If the number is positive, then the move will end before the defender can act again. If the number is negative, the defender will be able to act before the attacker and maybe even punish.
|
Invulnerability |
Indicates whether there's any frames of invulnerability during the attack. |
Move List
Normal Moves
Close Normals
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 4 | 2 | 5 | 11 | +5 | +3 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 4 | 4 | 8 | 16 | +0 | -2 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 5 | 1, 8 | 9 | 23 | +2 | +0 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 6 | 4 | 10 | 20 | +6 | +4 | - | |
|
Far Normals
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 8 | 5 | 14 | 27 | +1 | -1 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 5 | 2 | 26 | - | -8 | -10 | - | |
|
Crouch Normals
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 4 | 2 | 5 | 11 | +5 | +3 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 7 | 2 | 5 | 14 | +5 | +3 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 6 | 1, 7 | 17 | 31 | -5 | -7 | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | 11 | 4 | 6 | 21 | SKD | +8 | - | |
|
Jumping Normals
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Overhead | - | - | - | - | 4 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Overhead | - | - | - | - | 4 | 3 | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
- | - | Overhead | - | - | - | - | nj= 6 ; dj= 5 | nj= 2 ; dj= 3 | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Throws
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
24 | 24 | Throw | 0 | 0 | 0 | X | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
24 | 24 | Throw | 0 | 0 | 0 | X | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
0 | 0 | Mid | 0 | 0 | 0 | X | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Special Moves
Important note: All of Boxer's Special Moves can be max canceled, leading to some good, but hard to do - due to the charge - loops, and some of them can be super canceled in Max Mode.
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[d]~u A | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
[d]~u C | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[d]~u B | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
[d]~u D | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[b]~f A | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
[b]~f C | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[b]~f B | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
[b]~f D | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[b]~df A | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
[b]~df C | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[b]~df B | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
[b]~df D | - | - | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Level 1 | 9 | 15 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 2 | 12 | 18 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 3 | 15 | 21 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 4 | 18 | 24 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 5 | 21 | 27 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 6 | 24 | 30 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 7 | 28 | 34 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 8 | 36 | 42 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 9 | 42 | 48 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| ||||||||||||||
Version | Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability |
Level 10 | 48 | 54 | Mid | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
|
Super Moves
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
36x5 | 45 | Mid | 2x5 | 0 | 0 | X | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
32x9 | 40 | Mid | 0 | 0 | 0 | X | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | |
|
Exceed
Damage | Counter Dmg | Guard | G. Crush | Stun | Meter | Cancel | Startup | Active | Recovery | Total | Hit Adv | Block Adv | Invulnerability | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
136 | 142 | Mid | 36 | 0 | 0 | X | 1+13 | 2, 2 | 18 | 36 | SKD | -4 | 1F-14F (Full invul during startup) | |
|
Strategy
Basic Strategy
Boxer's Gameplan
Balrog isn't a jumper, just know that(Jump only if your opponent is stunned/in a punishable state). Just know your best anti-airs(Like the cr.C, and the Charge d, u moves) and you'll be fine. If you need to punish, do it with any damaging combo below. For his combos, they aren't that hard, and Boxer can do good damage when he needs. Only that. Good luck in your matches.
Advanced Strategy
A little help for that combo
Oh, you tried to land that damaging combo with two supers on the corner, but only have one level? Don't worry! You still can do something after the Super! We'll do what we call a "reset". "What is this?" Well, after most of the Supers, your opponent would be knocked down, right? But and for the moves with juggle properties, what would you do? Watch your opponent fall down? Of course, no. I'll just try to add damage, because it's a combo, you can't waste any opportunity. So let's just add a normal after the Super on the corner, it would be like this:
[Jump Attack] cr.C(While charging b/db), (After the Charge) u+D(While charging b/db), (After the Charge) f, b, f+K(Early), (If on the corner) s.C(For damage) or cr.A(If you want a faster move)
After the normal hits, your opponent will have a hit animation, and will land, but standing! That's where the mind games will begin. You have three options now(Or even more, you can create yours):
- You can jump and do any air normal for an overhead attack, and after that, you can land almost any combo after it(Note: You're on the corner, you can't crossup, obviously);
- You can do an empty jump(A jump without any jumping normal), and after you land, do a combo starting with a low or a low move itself(Can be dangerous depending of the character);
- You can just do a low move/combo on the ground without jumping(Yeah, Boxer lacks a ground overhead).
Match-Ups
Combos
SVC Chaos: SNK VS Capcom Quick Combo Notation Guide | |
---|---|
May change to numpad notation much later down the road. |
BnB Combos
Combo | Position | Damage | Stun | Difficulty | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~f P | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | Good combo to begin. The best finishers for it are probably the df+P/K, because they will do a knockdown, and won't whiff on some crouching chars. |
(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~f K | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | |
(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~df P | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | |
(j.X,) cr.C. [b]~df K | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | |
(j.X,) cr.C, [d]~u D, [b]~f P | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | Variaton of the first one, but with a little more damage. Nothing very special with this combo. |
(j.X,) cr.C, [d]~u D, [b]~f K | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | |
(j.X crossup,) cr.B, cr.A, any super | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | Just Boxer showing what he can do using his hands with a low starter. You can do the combo with some Special Moves too, but the Supers are just more damaging. Well... I said that the cr.B can't chain into other Light Attacks, and that's true. That above, is actually a link(Chain isn't the same thing as a link). I'll put another example of a link below. |
(j.X crossup,) cl.D, st.D, any super | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | That's it, another link. It's possible too, I can assume. Like the combo above, this can work with some Special Moves too. Move buffering with a dash can help you with this combo. |
(j.X,) cr.C, [d]~u D, (early) [b]~fbf K, (corner) [b]~fbf P | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | One of Boxer's most damaging combos! More than one bar of health in damage terms and two damaging Special Moves on only one combo! The sad part is that you'll need to have two levels in your meter. But don't worry with that! If you don't know what to do in Max Mode, you can use this combo, because you won't lose your two levels, and you'll be happy with the damage! Button hold recommended for doing this combo to ensure everything comes out as early as possible. |
(j.X,) cr./cl.C, Exceed | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | Another damaging combo, but used mostly for punish situations, or while your opponent is stunned. It has almost the same damage as the combo above, and you won't lose meter. Don't worry if you think that "It's so hard", because you have a shortcut for the Exceed. |
Max Mode Combos
Combo | Position | Damage | Stun | Difficulty | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
[(C)[b]~f A ~ (C)D]x3 | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | That's the loop. Click here if you want to see it. Very difficult to do as it barely gives Balrog enough time to charge in-between each attack, but the reward is well worth the execution requirements. |
[(C)[b]~f A ~ (C)D]x3, [d]~u D, [b]~fbf K, [b]~fbf P | Corner to Corner | TBA | TBA | TBA | A variation of the above combo that Balrog can do even if you're on the opposite end of the stage. Even better if he just enters Max Mode as he's starting the combo as this ensures he has enough meter to do the most damage and still have one bar of meter left over. |
[(C)[b]~f A ~ (C)D]x3, [d]~u D, reset | Corner to Corner | TBA | TBA | TBA | |
[AC/BD], any super | TBA | TBA | TBA | TBA | Easy, and can be damaging(The damage is random due to the TAP). Use it on punish situations, or if you want, to counter certain projecties(The ones with bad startup/recovery). It doesn't work with the Exceed too. |